[00:00:00] Shannon Hernandez: So today we are talking with Seth wrestler. He considers him, or I don't know if you gave yourself that name, but the digital dot connector at Jacobs media. How are you doing today? My friend. Good.
[00:00:11] Seth Resler: Thank you for having me. Yeah, that was title that they gave me. When I first started the Jacobs media five years ago.
[00:00:16] There's been the occasional second thought about that. But the idea being that, when I started radio and when you started radio, all you needed to know how to do was what the CD players, and then maybe the cart machine or the audio. Or faults or whatever it was. And nowadays you have to know so many different tools.
[00:00:34] You have to know, the tech talk and podcasts and Google analytics and blogs and all this stuff. And so my role was take all these different digital dots, if you will, and show you how they all. Connect two together and form a coherent plan.
[00:00:48] Shannon Hernandez: Sure. Now just to give some context to you being with Jacob's media now, Jacob's media view are the consulting firm.
[00:00:56] You work with the consulting firm that goes around the nation and consults with radio stations across the nation, correct? Yeah.
[00:01:03] Seth Resler: So Jacob's mania started, gosh, I don't know, four decades ago. Really. With classic rock. I think Fred was the first guy to come along and say, Hey, you know what, why don't we have a rock station that doesn't play new music?
[00:01:15] Maybe the people who like led Zepplin, don't like, Van Halen or whatever it was and started helping launch classic rock stations all over the country then started to do the same with alternative rock, really packaged that up. If you've ever seen an edge station anywhere throughout the country, that was Jake was media's thing was the edge stations.
[00:01:31] I was a Jacob's media client at a number of different places over.
[00:01:34] Shannon Hernandez: Sure. And you're out there in Detroit. Were you in Detroit when they were, now a consultant. No.
[00:01:40] Seth Resler: I am now, but I wasn't here. I came here about five years ago, but the company really started getting into the digital space, launched this tech survey.
[00:01:50] That is the industry's largest online survey of radio listeners to figure out how they're using new technology. And started this out at 16 years ago. Now watch the rise of social media, watched everybody dish their landlines and get cell phones, which obviously had big implications for how radio does its ratings.
[00:02:09] Now we're focused on things like podcasts and smart speakers like Alexa and the connected car and all that. And so these are really topics that are. Broader than just rock radio. And so we have branched out into other areas, working with public radio stations, Christian radio stations, things like that in addition to the rock
[00:02:26] Shannon Hernandez: radio consultant.
[00:02:27] Great. Now, when you, now that we are talking about Jacobs media jumping into this digital space, and I know, both of us have been in radio for probably the equal amount of time. I think I've been in radio for 21 years, and I know that. When the proliferation of smartphones started to overtake everything that radio jocks were lost at that point.
[00:02:51] They I remember I resisted smartphones for the longest time and I was like, ah, smartphones, who gives a shit about smartphones, and then Apple came out with the iPhone. And that was the one thing that changed the game. I remember I had a Google G one phone and I was like, Oh, this thing's kind of cool.
[00:03:06] It's fun to play with, but. Little did I know that as a radio broadcaster, that was going to change the game of how I presented my content on the radio. So I decided that I needed to start jumping into this digital space, whether it be podcasting, YouTube, blogging, and whatnot. And this is where Jacobs media, like you said, took this.
[00:03:26] This they recognize that trend. And so as you went through, as they withdraw out the years, they started adjusting and adapting to the trend. Now, when they brought you in, what was the purpose of having you as the digital dot connectors as they say, but really? What was your role for radio broadcasters?
[00:03:48] Seth Resler: Yeah. So let me start by talking a little bit about smart phones. Cause I think that's. That's really important, what you bring up. What we've seen with the smartphone is just all these other devices have been sucked in and now your phone plays the role that those other devices used to play. You don't have an alarm clock anymore sitting on your nightstand.
[00:04:04] It's now your phone that you use to wake yourself up. And I think radio, what we did everywhere was we tried to use all these channels to steer people back to the radio. Oh, let's use Facebook to keep. People to tune into the radio or get Twitter or whatever. And so we resisted the, do you have the radio being sucked into the smartphone?
[00:04:22] And in some ways it's been, slower to do that. And the other things that have gotten stuck in there, but inevitably people are streaming and listening to the radio on their smartphones. Jacob's media actually started a sister company called Jake apps because they recognized that radio stations were going to need mobile apps.
[00:04:38] So that people could access those radio stations on those apps. And so that's what Jacobs does. Now it builds mobile apps for other companies outside the radio industry, but it really started focused on the radio industry. I came in because, again, there's all these different digital tools and I think the question became, why do they really matter?
[00:04:56] What's the bottom line. Great. I'm getting a Facebook post with a thousand likes. How does that affect my revenue, right? Where does that fit? And I think the key here is that, again, if you look back 20 years ago, the only thing we could measure as radio stations were the ratings and the revenue.
[00:05:14] Those were our only two data points. Now we have a million data points. We've got everything from podcasts downloads to website visits, to retweets, you name it. And there is a temptation to think that just because you can measure it. It is important and not all of those different data points are equally important.
[00:05:32] Some of those things are more important than others. And I think a big part of it is figuring out which of these numbers really matter. And then how do we move them? I would argue that the single most important number is still revenue, how much money is actually coming in. And then it becomes a question of, okay, what's that second tier of numbers that feed into revenue, if I have. X number of website visits or X number of email subscribers. I know how to turn that into money for my radio station. So those numbers really matter. I don't necessarily know how to turn a retweet into money for the radio station. So that might be a third or fourth tier number that you know, more is better, right?
[00:06:09] It's not quite as important to some of these other numbers. Now,
[00:06:12] Shannon Hernandez: when we look at those metrics and we talk about, retweets, Facebook posts, all those things. I want to now move into this area of podcasting where a lot of podcasts they're looking for. I don't know if it's a magic bullet here we are in 2020.
[00:06:28] And I think podcasters, I think, are still looking for this magic bullet of saying I can get a podcast that's as big as a radio station, as big as Joe Rogan. And I can. Do that my entire life and make money and live the rest of my life, doing that completely, which isn't necessarily true because we're looking at different metrics.
[00:06:50] Even radio stations are looking at different metrics, because like you said, revenue is the most important thing that we're looking at here. What would you say to someone now who gets an idea that radio is focused on multiple metrics? What would you say to someone who is just in the podcasting game?
[00:07:04] How can radio broadcasting give solid lessons to a podcast or just starting out, or maybe has a podcast and is still trying to figure this game out based on metrics or based on revenue?
[00:07:18] Seth Resler: Yeah. I think it starts with knowing what those metrics are. What are we measuring and what are we doing with revenue?
[00:07:24] Look, I'm aware of radio broadcasters, or even people outside of the radio broadcasting industry who can generate a lot of downloads and yet not. Really turn that into revenue or not turn that into enough revenue to offset their costs. When you start talking about the type of podcast that takes a team of 10 people a year to make.
[00:07:45] 10 episodes and they're great. They're award-winning episodes and they might get millions of downloads, but then there's that question of, can they get the sponsorship dollars to actually pay for that or make enough of a profit to justify that? Whereas you take it something like a Mark Marron where the production, the production costs are just lower, right?
[00:08:02] It just doesn't. Take a team of 10 people to put together, Mark Marin's podcast or Conan O'Brien's or Joe Rogan's podcast. And so it works, the numbers work better, if that makes sense. So I think, yeah. First things first is understanding how the numbers work and understand that again, revenue is that most important number and figuring out how you get there.
[00:08:24] Shannon Hernandez: Sure. Now, getting there. I think that is the challenge. That's the question that gets asked on my YouTube channel all the time in the comments. They want to know, you know what? I have so many downloads per month. When can I start asking for a sponsorship? And there are there isn't a one answer. There, there isn't just one cover answer for this.
[00:08:45] There are multiple answers for this. So what would you say to a podcaster starting out very first time or maybe has been doing it for five months, but just not seeing results. What metric or what number do you think would be appropriate? If there is a metric that even matters to get a sponsor,
[00:09:02] Seth Resler: different people will say different things.
[00:09:04] Rob Walsh, who's the VP of podcast and relations over at Libsyn will tell you that. You really start to see advertisers interested when you start to see 5,000 downloads per episode. And usually when we say the number of downloads per episode, we're talking within 30 days of release. It's not over.
[00:09:21] Five years it's over the first month, the episode is out. I've heard other places Midroll say, look, it's really 50,000 before we start getting advertisers or interest. This assumes that you're going out and selling to your traditional advertisers, your blue apron, or your stamps.com or something like that.
[00:09:38] I think if you have a real niche podcast, you may be able to. Go out and find an advertiser or a sponsor, even if you've got smaller numbers. If I have a knitting podcast, I'm probably ideally suited for yarn barn to come along and sponsor this because everybody who listens to my podcast is.
[00:09:57] Potentially going to go shop at yarn barn. So even if I don't have a half a million downloads, it still makes sense for them to come along and sponsor. I think the other thing to look at is there are many different ways to monetize podcasts. And so don't think it's all about advertising that there may be other things that you can do.
[00:10:14] What a lot of people in podcasting do is. They don't look at the podcast as that product. It is part of the marketing effort for some other service or product that they have. So I'm a lawyer and I go out and I do a podcast because it's a way for people to hear me and go, Hey, this guy's a really smart lawyer.
[00:10:31] I'm going to hire him next time. I need a lawyer. So it's part of their marketing. You'll see, some people make money off of events, right? Not so much now because we're in the middle of a pandemic, but that's another way that you're starting to see you or other merge or other channels.
[00:10:43] Some people will make money off of it because these podcasts get turned into television shows. And that's something that we're starting to see more and more. So I think the other thing would be the focus on. Diverse revenue streams, and trying to make money in more than one
[00:10:58] Shannon Hernandez: way. How would you consult with someone or what would you say to someone who just heard everything that you said about these different revenue streams?
[00:11:06] And one of the things that you mentioned was that you can use podcasting as a great marketing effort, which is something that I've seen. Over and over. Not only with myself, but with my sister, who's a lawyer and she does a YouTube channel where it's just simple videos and that is her marketing effort, which helps bring in revenue.
[00:11:23] But what would you say to someone trying to transition or trying to implement these strategies in. To their marketing mix, where should they start without feeling overwhelmed? And how can you keep them from feeling overwhelmed?
[00:11:38] Seth Resler: Yeah. One of the things I like to tell people is to do a pilot season when it comes to podcasting.
[00:11:42] When I launched my first podcast, I thought of it like the tonight show or the today show where I was like, okay, I have to do this every week until the day I die. And if I don't, I failed as a podcaster and, spoiler alert that didn't happen, right? Like I'm not still doing that podcast.
[00:12:00] But I learned a lot and I'm still podcasting. It's just different podcasts that have come and gone along the way. So I like to encourage people to pick a finite number and do a pilot. Seasoned go in and say, Hey, I'm going to do 10 episodes. And we're going to start with that. And I'm going to learn a lot along the way, and it gives you a natural stopping point to get to the end of the season.
[00:12:21] And you're either going to go, Hey, that was a huge success. I'm going to come back and do season number two, or that was a dismal failure. I'm not going to waste any more time doing this. I'm going to do something else. Instead in all likelihood is going to be somewhere in the middle. And they're going to be some things that you found that have worked and some things that haven't, and so tweak it, change the format, figure out what's working and what's not, and make those changes and then come back for season number two.
[00:12:44] But I think if you can do that, it becomes much more manageable than this kind of, Oh, I've got to do this from now till the end of time.
[00:12:52] Shannon Hernandez: I want to take, I want to backtrack just a little bit because I feel as though the biggest struggle that I have with a lot of. People who come to my YouTube channel and who reach out to me is that the tech is the one thing that kind of holds them back.
[00:13:05] It's whether it's the editing software or it's the it could be the equipment that you need to get. And some do it very basic others do it more like radio like how I like to do my stuff. What would you say to someone when it comes down to the tech? Like where should they start?
[00:13:22] How should they see or. How should they envision their podcasts to sound?
[00:13:27] Seth Resler: I think sound quality matters. I do think you want a podcast that sounds as good as it possibly can, but I also think that this isn't about hitting a home run your first time up at bat. And if that's what you're trying to do, you're gonna.
[00:13:42] Disappoint yourself. Cause it's probably not going to happen. We sit here and think, Oh, Joe Rogan overnight success. Not really. The guy put in a lot of decades. Doing stand-up comedy, which is real hard to do to get there on the road and do all that stuff. And on television, that guy paid his dues before he got where he is.
[00:14:00] And so I think everybody's got to start there. The great thing about technology is you don't need to break the bank in order to do it so you can start fairly basic. If you want, you can use a service like anchor, which is now one by Spotify and use just your phone to podcast. I would recommend going a little bit above and beyond that.
[00:14:19] I pick up a simple microphone. I use the ATR 2100 from Audio-Technica or the ATR 2005. There's a, basically the same. Mike with a slightly different design or a Samson Q2, you these are mikes that run about $75. In fact, that's what I'm using right now for this. And you get decent sound out of it, and it's portable, it's an XLR or USB mic, so you can use it on any kind of equipment download An audio editor.
[00:14:43] You can get audacity for free. If you're a Mac user, I don't think it works on windows, but you can get something like Reaper and it's a $75 license. It doesn't cost a lot of money to do audio editing and you just got to get in there and start and play around with it. And again, I think the goal when you start, should be, I want to learn how to do this.
[00:15:02] Not. I want to become a millionaire,
[00:15:05] Shannon Hernandez: right? Yeah. You can't just say I'm going to be a millionaire. It's not, this is not meant to throw people in radial under the bus, but we aren't millionaires. We're not making money. The people who are higher up aren't millionaire not
[00:15:15] Seth Resler: very many of us now,
[00:15:17] Shannon Hernandez: but what we do, we learn as we do learn skills over the years.
[00:15:21] I don't know about you, but one of the things that, one of the skills that I really love to do and love to create our sweepers of people might think of them as bumpers. And those, I think are a lot more fun to create, but that took me forever to learn how to do that. And I'm still not as good as some of the guys that I have known growing up into my career.
[00:15:41] Those are some of the elements that I like to include. Do you think those elements should be included when it comes down to. A podcast.
[00:15:49] Seth Resler: Yeah. I think it's an aesthetic choice. We usually tell people to listen to other podcasts and see what they like. I come from a radio background, so I tend to like a much more kind of polished radio field, but there's a lot of podcasts that start with just a short bit of music and it's just instrumental.
[00:16:05] And there was no big voiceover guy. There's no Don Pardo who comes in and says, this is the,
[00:16:10] Shannon Hernandez: here's what the
[00:16:11] Seth Resler: wrestler. And that works. So I would start by listening to the podcast you like, and seeing if you can identify the elements in there, why do you like that? I sometimes hear.
[00:16:21] Young podcasts that come with this big 62nd production thing. That's, one of the things that we found in doing this is how important it is to get into the meat of the podcast right away. Because people come in and it's not like television where people have to flip around.
[00:16:36] And so you might need a theme song to make sure that it gets there at nine o'clock, just sit down to say, okay, everybody needs to sit down and gather with a podcast, people have found it and they've downloaded it and they've pressed play. So they're meant need to go.
[00:16:49] And you need to go. So I
[00:16:50] Shannon Hernandez: think that's something interesting to bring up because when it comes down to finding that podcast, there are elements that we look at behavioral elements that we do look at when it comes down to finding a podcast that be the show art, it could be the description. It could be the title of the podcast is episode itself.
[00:17:09] What are the most important things? Do you, what is the most important thing do you think comes with that behavioral, that behavior? When it comes down to searching for a podcast, Yeah.
[00:17:19] Seth Resler: So before they press play for me even press play. Yeah. So a couple of things. I think the title of the podcast itself really matters.
[00:17:28] Both. So one of the things that I think, we know that most people we'll hear about podcasts through word of mouth. And we know that the second most common way that people find a podcast is by searching. And when we talk about search engine optimization, which is the art of making sure that when people search for stuff, Your stuff comes up at the top of the results.
[00:17:46] We often think about Google, but when it comes to podcast, it's helpful to think of especially Apple podcasts and also Spotify, which are the two biggest directories Apple podcasts by far the biggest directory, Spotify, the number two with about 10% of downloads and everything else is a distant distance.
[00:18:04] But think about Apple podcasts and think about Spotify as search engines. And then think about them as not very good search engines, because we're all used to Google who their core business is, search and Apple podcasts, Apple's core business is not search, apple's core businesses selling hardware.
[00:18:21] Yeah, they're doing search, but they're not doing the Google level. So you need to understand how these these search engines, index things and surface them. We'll often tell people that. Ideally you want people to know just by looking at the podcast, what it's about.
[00:18:36] Yeah. So if I were doing a podcast about pineapple recipes, it might be really clever and already for me to call my podcast and spiky fruit, but nobody was looking for pineapple. Recipes is going into Apple podcast and typing in spiky fruit. Pineapple. And so you want to make sure that you come up for that term.
[00:18:54] And so I think thinking about your keywords and thinking about what you're coming up with is really important. And so I would think about search and I'd be thinking about word of
[00:19:01] Shannon Hernandez: mouth. Yeah. And how about that artwork? That's always something that, that trips people up, they go, ah, I'm just gonna make a quick piece of art and it's gonna be done in Canva.
[00:19:10] And which is not, you can actually make some pretty decent things in Canva.
[00:19:13] Seth Resler: I again, I think just like the title of the show, I think you want the artwork to do the same thing, which is instantly convey what the podcast is about. Should be able to look at it. And I should know it at a glance and keep in mind that our work can be really small on a phone.
[00:19:27] So make sure it works really small at a really small size. So a lot of words on your artwork is usually not going to work. Things like that. And so those are all things to consider.
[00:19:37] Shannon Hernandez: And I think also like when we think about, before they even press play, I know for myself what, where this podcast, where I was going to take this podcast, the vision I had with this podcast, because I've been in radio and I make my podcasts sound like radio.
[00:19:51] And so I knew the elements that needed to happen beforehand. And would just say that as we. As we are pod-casters as podcasts come and visit my YouTube channel, they visit this podcast itself. That it's, it doesn't happen all at once. It happens over time. You learn this stuff over time.
[00:20:09] I didn't learn this stuff overnight. It was just something that I desired to do. And so I think that is some really I think that would be some advice to share with a podcast or that might be struggling. I get some people to say I've got a PA a comedy podcast. And then they say how do I sound on that comedy podcast?
[00:20:25] I can't be a for sure. Expert on telling you how your podcast will sound from a comedy standpoint. But I can tell you from a programming standpoint, what it sounds like, and maybe it just doesn't work. Maybe it just doesn't work, but that's where I think we see with podcasting that it is just a mushroom out with so many different formats that there is no one format with podcasting, which brings me to my next point.
[00:20:50] At podcast movement. I've known you since I met you at podcast movement in Dallas, I believe it was Dallas Fort worth and you were just exploring the space. And now you're a speaker at podcast movement, which I think is great because you do bridge that gap with radio and podcasting. And there is a session, especially a session that you did this year at podcast movement.
[00:21:11] You've done in the past. It's talks about the first 30 seconds of. Your podcast and you touched on that just a little bit. Can you tell me what that first 30 seconds is about and what it is meant to do for podcasts?
[00:21:23] Seth Resler: Can I just point out the one when we were in Fort worth for that? I think that was the second podcast movement ever.
[00:21:29] And that was the first one that I went, we were one of five radio people that were working here. And most of the radio people that were there were not employed, currently employed. And now you look and I heart's there in Westwood. One's there and the radio companies have really embraced.
[00:21:45] A podcast in the podcasting space in a way that's been fairly quick compared to how radio has sometimes embraced other forms of yeah.
[00:21:53] Shannon Hernandez: I, before, before you go, though, I want to, I just want to let the audience know that we were like one of five people there. And we were like one of five people standing in like some restaurant that like wallflowers and we're like, Oh yeah, there's one Rob Walsh over there.
[00:22:09] Like we're just pointing. We're like total fanboys look, there was that podcast or now. It's true. We were total fanboy. And now look at you. You're big time now. Sad. Wow.
[00:22:20] Seth Resler: I don't know about that, but I, when I've posted this session for the last couple of years at podcast called podcast makeover, this is actually based on something that.
[00:22:29] Fred Jacobs and shake us media has done with morning shows for radio in the past which is essentially an air check session. And radio people know when their check is it's when they bring a recording of their show into their program director's office and they sit down and they listen to it together.
[00:22:43] And the programmer critiques the show and says, here's, what's working well. And here's, what's not, and that's how radio people get better. Podcasters don't have that. They don't. Haven't, cause there's only so many times you can go to your, your spouse or your mother and say, Hey, when you listen to my podcast and tell me what you think.
[00:23:01] Yeah. So when we did this, we would air check podcasts live on stage. And over the years of doing this, the thing that really became apparent to me is how important the first 30 seconds of a podcast are because people make a snap judgment about whether they want to listen to the whole thing or not.
[00:23:17] So this year. With podcasts movement becoming a virtual event because of the pandemic. We decided that we were going to have a panel and do it American idol style, or America's got talent where we would just listen to the first 30 seconds of several podcasts and critique them and say, yes, I would want to hear more or no, I'm done.
[00:23:36] I'm out. I'll get, give me something else. And so we had. Peter Siegel, who is the host of wait, don't tell me on MPR it was one of our panelists and we had Shannon Kaysen. Who's a a moth storyteller who's been in the group, won the grand slam in the past. And we had Lisa Orkin who it works just for the radio ranch and his creative director.
[00:23:54] And does this fantastic job creating audio commercials for both podcasts and for radio. And so they were on my panel and critique this, and we learned a lot about what makes the first 30 seconds of a podcast work. And like I was saying earlier, if you have this bloated, if 30 seconds is not a lot of time no, it's not it can be very long for a listener, but when you're on this side of the mic, it feels like it goes very fast.
[00:24:16] And we played a couple and. Then I would ask the panel, do you know what this podcast is about? And they would not because a lot of these podcasts begin with idle, chit chat about what we had for breakfast that morning. And then minute nine, they get into a, by the way on today's show here.
[00:24:32] So we're interviewing and people want that right away. So we started that. What you need to do at the top of the podcast is tell the people what the show is a whole is about. Who you are as the host and then what this episode is about. So I used to host a food and travel podcast called taste trackers in my opening would be hello, welcome to taste trekkers.
[00:24:52] This is the podcast for foodies who love travel and travelers who love food today. We're talking to Joe blow who runs Memphis food tours. And so if you're a foodie going to Memphis, we're going to tell you all the dishes, you need to try the neighborhoods you need to visit the chefs you need to know.
[00:25:05] And right away, either yet. I'm in, this is my kind of podcast or note. This is not for me and I'm out and that's fine for people to have that reaction. But cause at least they know or are unsure of what the podcast is about.
[00:25:18] Shannon Hernandez: Yeah. You're doing them. You're doing the listener, the favor really?
[00:25:21] You're saying, Hey, this is what the podcast is about. If you don't like it and get out like
[00:25:25] Seth Resler: And look not, there's no such thing as a podcast for everybody. It doesn't exist. Someone's not going to like your podcasts and you gotta be okay with that. And it's just for really knowing who, and I think the more you dial in the better, right?
[00:25:38] The more, who your audience is with taste records. For example, one of the things that I've found. Was that I went to a food blogger conference at one point and I was like, this is going to be great. These are all going to be people who listen to my podcast. And as soon as I tell me about it, they're going to go, that's brilliant.
[00:25:51] And give me your card. I want to go listen to it right now. And what I discovered is that this food blogger conference was essentially a lot of mommy bloggers was, were people who had an hour of free time. A week because they had young kids at home and their creative outlet was blogging about what they made in their home kitchen which is great.
[00:26:11] It's a fantastic thing to do. And it is not something that you would ever do if you listen to my podcast, because my podcast is not about how to make food at home. It's about. Going out to eat. And so I figured out that there were diners and there were cooks and I was making a podcast for diners and I was at a conference full of cooks.
[00:26:31] And so it didn't work. And so from then on out, I made this rule. Okay. On the podcast, we know who we're talking to. We're not talking about nutrition on this podcast. We're not talking about diets. We are, there are no recipes in this. That's not what this is about. This is a show about how to eat when you are away from home.
[00:26:48] So the more, not only what your show is about, but also what it's not about. I think that's really important. Yeah.
[00:26:56] I
[00:26:56] Shannon Hernandez: think that is a huge thing. Back in the day I was a high school English teacher in another life. And one of the topics I had to teach was rhetoric. It was the art of persuasive writing.
[00:27:07] I took that. Did you take that class? Yes, I did. You're a pro at it, then, you know exactly what are, where I'm going with this. But one of the things that. Aristotle would always talk about was knowing your audience so that you can appeal to either logic or emotion within the presentation itself. And if you don't understand the audience doesn't respond back to you.
[00:27:26] So I think when a podcast or comes in, they think they have an idea of where they're going to take this show, but they might be attracting a whole different audience. Yeah.
[00:27:38] Seth Resler: Yeah. And I think you need to figure that out. Then radio, we sometimes talk about creating avatars or personas, which are stand-ins for the audience and we helps them envision us and know who we're talking to.
[00:27:51] I often think. I worked at a, an alternative rock radio station in Providence, Rhode Island called WVU, and it flipped alternative in the late eighties. And when I worked there later on, they had a big blown up a big newspaper ad that they printed when they flipped and. The thing about alternatives, that you're an alternative to something so that what they said in this ad is it's not just about the artists we play.
[00:28:14] It's also about the artists who don't play. And they went on to list ECDC and led Zepplin. And some of these journeying, things like that, some of these were big bands and bands with a lot of fans, but they didn't fit the alternate. And if you were a fan of the Ramones or the offspring or whatever it might be, you were like, yeah, big that other stuff. And that's for me, always crystallized this idea of not only know what your show is, but know what your show isn't and it's okay. If your show isn't something really big recipes or led Zeppelin because if you're dialed into that, there will be an audience for
[00:28:49] Shannon Hernandez: that.
[00:28:50] Yeah. And I think one lesson that you can learn where I think podcasters can get stuck is that they feel they can't pivot the show. No. And the pivot, I think is one of the biggest things that could happen in early in my radio career. I remember I struggled for about six years part-time and then I didn't understand basically how to present on the radio.
[00:29:12] I was very afraid of the microphone and your pivots can happen with a programming change with what with your podcast too, all the way to a performance. And that's what it was for me. It was a. Formance that I ended up pivoting my mindset to say what do I have to worry about with a microphone?
[00:29:28] And what do I have to worry about the audience? I already know the audience. I can pivot my current. Presentation skills to fit what I know I am more comfortable. I'm not so stuffy. And so you can do this with a podcast format, a podcast topic. However, I know there's podcasts out there that have done this in the past.
[00:29:47] I've run into them and they say that they may have done something that was involved in a nutrition and wellness, but then they're like, but I talked to more about yoga. Yeah. And so they said we're just going to focus on the thing that I know the best. So I think that is something that's very important that podcasters need to recognize.
[00:30:05] What value do you see? I want to switch gears here. What value do you see in local podcasts? You brought up your own podcast as being something that you would do in your area. What value do you see and are they super impactful or should you expect them to be super impactful?
[00:30:20] Seth Resler: Local podcasting is interesting.
[00:30:22] There are a handful of people out there who are doing local podcasting and we're one of them with the debrief, which is about the Detroit arts and entertainment scene. I've learned a lot. Doing it and I think it's about being dialed into your audience. The tough thing about local podcasting is, again, coming back to those revenue metrics, does it work?
[00:30:42] And can you hit the numbers that you need only about a third of people listen to podcasts out there. Everybody knows how to read a blog. Everybody knows how to click on YouTube and watch a video, but only about a third of people are regularly in the habit. Of listening to podcasts.
[00:30:55] So right there, you're taking your potential audience and cutting it by two thirds. And that's best case scenario. Like you're the biggest podcast in your city, everybody listens to you. , doubt even, the New York times is hitting either getting a third of everybody out there.
[00:31:10] You've gotta figure out how those numbers work and how that is. David plots from slate. Former editor in chief of slate and long time host of the slate, political gab vest has got a new venture called city CAS, which is looking into the idea of local journalism through podcasts.
[00:31:28] And I think it's going to be a real interesting thing to watch and see how that does you starting to see public radio delve into that. But it's unclear. Less on whether it can be done from a content angle and more about whether it's something that can be monetized.
[00:31:42] Shannon Hernandez: I think and, what's interesting about local podcasts because we have a podcast here run by the Arizona Republic by AC central.
[00:31:50] And they do a podcast specifically about either. It could be about the history of what's going on in Arizona, or they're talking about certain trends. Where is the gap? For example, they might say. We're talking about Corona in Arizona and those podcasts are formatted specifically just to be Arizona centric.
[00:32:07] Does that impact Arizona's will all Arizona is go and listen to that podcast, not everyone, but you also have to think that if you are a city centric podcast or a region centric podcast, that someone from out-of-state might be moving. To your city or your region, and they might want to get an idea of what it might be like in that area with a metric standpoint.
[00:32:33] Will it make sense? I don't know. It's a difficult metric if you ask me because you're so localized, but it doesn't mean that you couldn't be part of a local influencer program implement your own merchandise, things like that. That I think could probably play into the
[00:32:47] Seth Resler: game. I think there are certain factors that broaden an audience and certain factors that narrow an audience.
[00:32:53] And so I think it's about coming up with the right combination of factors. When we think about radio, we don't think about this often, but radio is X actually niched along two factors. One is geography. You can only hear the radio station within a certain area within a certain radius of the tower.
[00:33:09] That's transmitting the signal. And the other is format, right? This is a radio station that plays top 40 music or rock music or hip hop or whatever it is. Because radio is already formatted twice before you even start radio personalities, then try to broaden the audience by talk, talking about the biggest.
[00:33:27] Topics, they can find, the Superbowl or what Kim Kardashian just did or, whatever, because now they're trying to make it bigger. There's similar things that come into play with podcasts, right? So your, obviously your topic, what you're talking about, narrows it. If you're doing, again a podcast about knitting, that's going to narrow it, but then the geography can actually widen it because we're not just looking for knitters in LA.
[00:33:49] We're looking for knitters. Anywhere in the world, right? One of the factors that will either widen or narrow the audience is the shelf life of the content. Meaning is it evergreen so that I could tune into this boggy, listen to this podcast five years from now, and it would still be relevant or is it very ripped from the headlines?
[00:34:08] I listened to meet the press, for example, as a podcast every week, And on the one hand, I feel this pressured listened to it every week, because I know that if I don't, it'll become out of date. On the other hand, I've never gone back and listened to a six month old episode of meet the press because it's not relevant anymore.
[00:34:23] So if you are going to narrow the scope, the audience of your podcast based on geography, this is only going to apply to people in Arizona. One way that you can then increase the audience is yes, but it's going to apply. Two people in Arizona for the next 10 years. Because it's about the history and people are still going to find this relevant 10 years from now.
[00:34:43] So people don't have to find it within the next week. In order to, so I think that's one of the things that you can do. I'm working on a podcast now producing a podcast core of the historical society about the history of Detroit beer. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. This project.
[00:34:58] It's been great. It's going to come out probably early next year and again, and this is one of those things where it's going to be much more interesting and you may find it interesting if you're not from Detroit, but it's going to be much more interesting if you're from Detroit or from Michigan.
[00:35:11] But it will still be relevant five years from now and people can still listen to it.
[00:35:14] Shannon Hernandez: And that exists. I don't think people realize that, especially content creators and podcasters, that those things still exist. There was a brand that I came across the other day that was promoting. I don't know if you've seen this, but it's these these metal they're metal cast and they, you put a block of ice in them and then you put this metal cast on top of it, and then it melts the ice.
[00:35:35] And then when you pull the cast off, it turns the block of ice into a round globe. Oh, that's awesome. And I was like, that is rad. That is really cool. And so took the bait and I clicked on it and they were selling it now. It was a really expensive product, but it was all part of a brand that had a podcast and a YouTube channel.
[00:35:54] And so that was still relevant. So I could go back into the library and I could see what they were talking about, whatever taste tests they were doing, whatever reviews that they were doing on food or whatever it may have been. And I thought this is actually really cool. They have created this library or compendium of content that you can always go back and review and say Oh, I, I can see what they're saying about this too.
[00:36:15] It's too dry of a taste or whatever, but they've also now worked on it so much now. And they have this. Whole brand that comes with it, which I think is very cool that they have
[00:36:23] Seth Resler: done. Yeah, I think that's something that you are seeing more and more of is brands embracing podcasts as part of their marketing efforts.
[00:36:32] And we were talking about different revenue streams earlier. I think that's another revenue stream is a podcast production for brands that are looking to do that.
[00:36:40] Shannon Hernandez: Yeah, I agree. I got a couple more questions for you, Seth. Cause I know you are busy in the pandemic right now, staying at home. First question, before we jump into the next question pants on or off today, do you have pants?
[00:36:51] Seth Resler: Pants are on today. Jeffrey Toobin messing around.
[00:36:55] Shannon Hernandez: I agree a hundred percent now. Since you've been diving into the digital space, what is one thing that you have learned? From podcasters that United now try to consult with radio broadcasters. And we'll just answer the last that question first.
[00:37:12] So what is one skill that you take from product podcasters that helps radio broadcasters?
[00:37:17] Seth Resler: It's interesting because, as radio broadcasters, I think we become so comfortable behind the microphone that we think that we can do that anywhere. I'm a radio broadcast at first, right?
[00:37:26] I've been a radio broadcaster for like over 20 years now. If you need somebody to talk up the ramp of a Lincoln park song and. Plug the remote broadcast that's happening at the car dealership this weekend and drop in a witty line and hit the post. I'm really good at that. And I'm okay. As a podcast, cause I'm only been doing that for nine years lying
[00:37:46] Shannon Hernandez: forms of left brother.
[00:37:47] I understand.
[00:37:47] Seth Resler: And it's not the same skillset, right? I think the reason public radio has been so far ahead of commercial radio and podcasting is because you can take an episode of car talk. And without making any changes to it, put it up on the air or, our fresh air with Terry Gross or whatever, and it's ready to go.
[00:38:05] But if you are doing a song, excuse me, doing a show where you are playing six songs an hour, and you're saying the call letters a dozen times, and you're resetting and repeating, you can't necessarily just lift the audio and. Drop it into an on demand form and put it online and expect that it's going to work.
[00:38:24] Shannon Hernandez: Right.
[00:38:25] Seth Resler: You may be, if you're doing an all talk morning show, that's something that you can do. So I think one of the key things is that they are different mediums and that you do have to treat them differently. And while I do think there are situations where you can repurpose audio from one place to another, I think you have to really think about that.
[00:38:47] From the outset and go, how are we going to create audio that works both as a radio show and as a podcast, don't think about how can we take this radio show? That's clearly just a radio show and. Throw it out as a podcast as well. Or same thing with video, how do we take this radio?
[00:39:03] How do we take this morning show and make it work on the radio on, YouTube live or Facebook live and as a podcast and what do we have to do to each format? This this. Beer podcasts and I'm working on one of the things that's been really interesting is that as a radio guy, I'm used to my production being really tight, and just cramming everything together because we've got five seconds to get, the reading or whatever. And I've actually had to tell my editor to go back and space things out and make it breathe more and put more pauses in because when you listen to it in your ear buds, it's a much more intimate experience and you just kinda need that.
[00:39:40] For lack of a better word than breathing in the,
[00:39:44] Shannon Hernandez: in the podcast. Cause of sorts to make it feel like a conversation, I think that is the hardest part for radio people. I want to flip this on its head. What have, what can you say that podcasters that you've worked with have learned from radio?
[00:40:00] What have you taught them? What is one of the best things that they have? Or I guess Mo one of the most enlightening things that they have gathered from radio.
[00:40:08] Seth Resler: Yeah. I think a lot of people got into podcasting because. In some ways they view it as a revolt against radio. And to me it reminds me of the beginning of alternative, right?
[00:40:18] Oh, I'm going to start this punk band and revolt against the corporate rock. And so they think that there are no rules and and that's not true that there are. Principles again, they may be applied differently, but there are principles that we've learned in radio that work. And, we were talking earlier about the first 30 seconds of a podcast.
[00:40:39] That's a variation on a principle that we know is resetting in radio. And it works differently in radio. You reset, let's say you're hosting a four hour morning show, and you don't know when people are going to start listening. To your to your show, they may get in their car at six 45 or seven 30 or eight 15.
[00:40:57] And so what you've got to do is constantly reset, and just assume that nobody heard the last break that you did on radio. So you can say, Hey, Andy, if you just tuning in, I'm talking to Lisa, she's a sex expert and we're talking about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's something similar that has to happen in podcasts, but it's not if I do a 90 minute, if I have 90 minute episodes, it's not like I have to re-introduce my guests every 15 minutes in the podcast, but they do need to reset at the top of every episode of my podcast, because people could be tuning into my podcast for the first time.
[00:41:29] And maybe they've been with me since episode one or maybe episode 317 is the first time they've ever listened to my podcasts. And so you want to make it accessible to everybody that's resetting so radio principle, we're just using it a little bit differently in, in podcasting. So I think this idea that there are no rules and we can do whatever we want.
[00:41:48] And now you got to know the rules before you break them, and you got to understand why they're there and you got to understand. Why you're changing them for a podcast.
[00:41:57] Shannon Hernandez: That is great advice. That is perfect advice, because that is advice that I have shared with other podcasts, people looking to do this stuff.
[00:42:04] And I've, I have a shirt that actually says, know the rules before you can break them. Yeah. And you have to know those rules these principles that you talk about, like resetting, that was a hard thing for me to catch onto yeah. Radio when I was doing a 30 minute, 20 minute interview and having to reset because you.
[00:42:21] Didn't know how many people were going to be flipping the dial. And they're like who's this guy coming on, but in podcasting, their first point of contact might be that pod, that, that episode that shows up in a Facebook feed through a share. And they might not know who you are. So resetting every time is, it's a very, it's a very important concept because not a lot of podcasters that I know are doing it.
[00:42:47] And they just jump into the content and you don't have an idea of either who you're talking about or who you're talking to. Love that you brought up that concept. Okay. I know you got to run here, Seth, but I want to ask you a series of nine questions. I didn't do 10 because nine, is just like everything else on the internet will like the seven top things.
[00:43:03] And I'm just going to mention some things for you and you just give me your brief thoughts. It could be 10 seconds could be five seconds. It could be whatever you want it to be. But I'm just going to mention them to you and then you just give me your thoughts on them. Okay. Okay. All right. So here we go.
[00:43:16] Number one, your favorite food to taste.
[00:43:21] Seth Resler: Oh, my favorite food to taste.
[00:43:23] Shannon Hernandez: Okay. Time's up? No, I'm just kidding.
[00:43:25] Seth Resler: For some reason I thought of fried chicken, I like something that's crispy on the outside, but when you get into it it's juicy and succulent. And just has that contrast in it.
[00:43:35] Shannon Hernandez: You do, you use a lot of adjectives in your podcast whenever you're describing food.
[00:43:39] Seth Resler: What's funny is I don't actually do much of the food description my guests do. So I will try to solicit that from them. For me, the key is often playing dumb and just going, I don't know what that is, and I know what toasted ravioli is.
[00:43:51] I lived in St. Louis, know that it's a thing there, but then when you do that interview, you've got to go, I don't know what toasted ravioli is. What does that look like? What does that taste like? Yeah.
[00:43:58] Shannon Hernandez: Totally I play dumb, but it's just a natural thing for me anyway. So thanks pal.
[00:44:05] No kidding. Number two podcasting to grow a business or podcasting for entertainment,
[00:44:11] Seth Resler: podcasting to grow a business or podcasting for entertainment only. I think it depends on what you want to do and I've never been good at having hobbies. Cause when I start something, I want to be the best in the world at it.
[00:44:21] I'm always disappointed because there's always somebody better.
[00:44:24] Shannon Hernandez: That's true. That's a very humble way of looking at it.
[00:44:26] Seth Resler: I'm frustrated that I'm not the Elon Musk of pumpkin
[00:44:30] Shannon Hernandez: in my eyes, Seth, you are my friend.
[00:44:33] Seth Resler: I, I think there can be podcasts for entertainment only. And I think that two ways of thinking about it is it entertaining for the person making it or is it entertaining for the audience and ideally it should be both.
[00:44:43] But I would start because it's something that you want to do. I would not start this because you think this is a way to get rich. Sure. I would start this as, because you love audio and you should be starting a podcast because you listen to podcasts. Stephen King has this thing where he talks about you can't be a writer.
[00:44:57] If you don't read. Yeah. You can't be a podcast or if you don't listen
[00:45:00] Shannon Hernandez: to podcasts, I listened to production, listened to content, listened to formulations of how they came to a conclusion or a question. I think that's important. Number three, favorite podcast right now.
[00:45:15] This one gets me too all the time. So
[00:45:18] Seth Resler: I will say that there've been periods where I'll listen to a podcast for a while and then I'll fall off. Mark Marin was one of the podcasters that got me into podcasting because I listened to Mark Marin interview, Conan O'Brien and I was like, Oh my God, Conan O'Brien has the same problems that I have
[00:45:36] not really true. But then I'll fall off, right? Because Conan O'Brien because Martin Maron's podcast is evergreen. So I can sit there and listen to a dozen episodes and then go away for a couple months and then come back. The one that I have listened to almost every week for 15 years is Slate's political gab Fest with John Dickerson.
[00:45:52] Who's now on 60 minutes and Emily. Avalon is with I think it's New York times magazine and David plots. And it's a radio morning zoo format. Like it's the format that we always know, two guys and a girl with a three, 3% round table discussion, but they talk about politics and they break down what's really happening.
[00:46:12] And it's just. It's been well done forever and it's been consistent forever. And that's the one that I
[00:46:17] Shannon Hernandez: listened to every awesome. Awesome. Ah, number four preferred consumption app for podcasts.
[00:46:26] Seth Resler: So I use pocket casts because I'm on an Android, I'm on a galaxy Samsung. And so I don't have Apple podcasts at my disposal.
[00:46:33] I switched to it a number of years ago because I was finding that I would start a podcast on my iPad and then I would get in the car and I needed it on my phone. And at the time pocket casts had that ability and what whatever I was using. Prior to that did not. And so that's a switch to that. I will say since the pandemic has started and I don't leave my house very often.
[00:46:54] I am pulling up podcasts more and more on Alexa. Oh, okay. And that, that has increased quite a bit. I have an Alexa in my kitchen and when I'm making food, I like to listen to something. Gotcha.
[00:47:06] Shannon Hernandez: Okay. That I understand that. Cause I do the same thing. I have a Google home. And now that Google homes and nests, how now that ability to listen to podcasts.
[00:47:15] In fact, I actually pull them up on my phone and then I streamed them to the nest, wherever I'm, whatever I'm cooking my in my little, 900 square foot place and played in the living room and it's five feet away, next one less equipment with more power or more equipment with less power.
[00:47:31] Seth Resler: When we say power, are we talking electricity? Are we just saying like power
[00:47:34] Shannon Hernandez: Let's say with more impact. Okay.
[00:47:37] Seth Resler: Less equipment with for the longest time. I was podcasting with a zoom H five recorder and a couple of these ATR 2100 mikes which is about $400 worth of gear. And that's the setup that I take to CES when there's a CES to go, to, to do that podcast with that, I take to the worldwide radio summit that I used to do for a lot of things.
[00:47:57] I started. Podcasting with that or with Skype, I was doing interviews over Skype. I knew him a resume. So I don't think you need to spend a ton of money to do this. I think you need to develop your skills. I think there's a ton of time that goes into it, but I don't think huge equipment,
[00:48:19] Shannon Hernandez: $10,000 worth of equipment.
[00:48:20] It's just not,
[00:48:22] Seth Resler: you need production volumes, but you don't need world-class.
[00:48:27] Shannon Hernandez: Absolutely. Absolutely. Number eight hosting provider.
[00:48:32] Seth Resler: Ooh, I'm going to get in trouble here.
[00:48:35] Shannon Hernandez: No, I, if it's going to make, get you in trouble, but what would you say the top three would be for you? Yeah
[00:48:39] Seth Resler: So here's the thing.
[00:48:40] I, we mentioned Rob waltz from Libsyn. I have used Libsyn. From the beginning the book that got me into podcasting was one that Rob Walch wrote the introduction was written by John Edwards. I don't know if you know this story that Rob waltz was approached by John Edwards during the presidential campaign to produce a podcast.
[00:48:56] And then a month later, Obama came to him and insane. Yeah, no Bama down because he'd already said yes to Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards wrote the the intro to the book. And this is so long ago, Jonathan Edwards was still thought of as a good guy.
[00:49:13] So I read that book and got into it. And so I started using Libsyn early on. And have not really changed because I just knew the interface. There are a ton of people that I really respect Todd Cochran from blueberry, who has been very involved in the podcast space, very involved. They do great stuff over a blueberry.
[00:49:31] And frankly, I like the people who show up. And get involved. Rob Greenlee, who is now with Libsyn, but has been with Spreaker and other places over the years is another guy, this, you got to podcast movement or one of these conferences. And when there's two robs in a Tod on a panel, that's the that's the three wise men of podcasts.
[00:49:46] They really are. Yeah. Yeah. I've started using Omni studio for some stuff, which was originally designed by radio broadcasters out of Australia. So for radio people, there's some tools there that make it nice and easy. So yeah, I think it's really about knowing what features you want. And then going and looking for those features.
[00:50:06] And there's a lot of
[00:50:08] ways
[00:50:08] Shannon Hernandez: to go, right? Yeah. That's great advice because I, in the past say five to six months, I've been asked, what's the best hosting provider. And I have to say, what are you looking for? It really depends. You're going to have to find the platform that works for you.
[00:50:22] There is no one size fits all back in the day. Yeah, there was Libsyn. And the ones that I only knew of was lips. And I remember when Lipson was just a tiny, teeny little website, that's all it was. And then blueberry came in and then I went to the first podcast movement and there were just these few little hosting providers.
[00:50:39] And now, I don't even, I can't even keep track of all of them. There's so many, but they all offer something a little bit different. Great answer. You're not gonna get in trouble. I don't think you're gonna get in trouble. And last question, Joe Rogan to Spotify.
[00:50:52] Seth Resler: Yes. Look, it's amazing what Joe Rogan has done.
[00:50:55] I heard somebody from Spotify thing the other day that Joe Rogan is arguably the biggest audio personality out there bigger than even how it started at this point. I think that may be the case. I think we're going to look back at this moment in history and we're going to view Joe Rogan going to Spotify the same way that we now view Howard stern going to satellite radio.
[00:51:16] And Like you, I worked in rock radio and there were a ton of rock radio stations all over the country that were really anchored by Howard stern. And when he left, it hurt rock radio a lot. And radio was saying this was a dumb move for stern at the time. A lot of smart.
[00:51:30] Shannon Hernandez: I raised my hand on that one, he
[00:51:31] Seth Resler: said, he said, Oh, this is going to be a disaster for Howard.
[00:51:34] And I don't think it was a disaster for him. And I don't think it was a disaster for satellite radio either. I think it's been great for both. It's been very mutually beneficial. I think that's probably going to be true in the long run for Spotify as well. I think that this is going to be they caught a big whale there and I think there's a sizable investment there.
[00:51:52] And we're going to see if it pans out, but I think there's a good shot that it might.
[00:51:56] Shannon Hernandez: Yeah. I agree with that just because when I heard the news. And the guy at the radio station told me that Rogan moved to Spotify, his excitement. I can't even describe his excitement in a certain amount. Number of adjectives.
[00:52:10] He was so excited that this was going to be a thing. And when he D he said that I was like this is huge for Spotify. This is a big thing for Spotify, because now it opens up the doors for so many other content creators. Now we have Michelle Obama, I believe is on. Spotify now doing that stuff.
[00:52:27] Seth Resler: But I think the other analogy besides how it started going to satellite radio is this is going to be a lot like Netflix creating its own content.
[00:52:35] Yeah. Whereas Netflix is a company that started distributing other people's content. And then at some point they started making their own and things like stranger things or orange is the new black and really move. The needle. And frankly, again, it comes down to those revenue metrics.
[00:52:49] You can make more money when you own the content than when you're distributing somebody else's content, you got to pay royalties or licensing fees or whatever on it. I think Spotify. Think Spotify has really stepped up as a player in this space, in a way that for the longest time Apple was number one and there was no number two and Spotify stepped in and said, we're really going to dedicate ourselves to this space and invest in the space.
[00:53:14] And they really have, they've put their money where their mouth is. And so I think you're going to start to see more and more. Great content coming out of there. Great
[00:53:22] Shannon Hernandez: Seth wrestler of Jacobs media, the digital dot connector. Thank you so much for sitting down with me for a sizeable chunk of time in your day.
[00:53:29] I didn't expect for an hour, but it was such a great conversation that I appreciate your thoughts and musings about podcasting. And of course, helping out those who will be listening to this podcast is there a way, or do you invite. Podcasters outside of the radio space to reach out to you and look for advice, help, whatever.
[00:53:47] How can
[00:53:49] Seth Resler: talking about podcasting? So by all means, feel free to email me. I'm Seth S C T [email protected]. I've got a blog there where once a week I sit down and I write about digital topics and it's geared towards radio broadcasters, but I think there's a lot that podcasters could find useful in there as well.
[00:54:04] But I love talking about podcasting, so no. Don't
[00:54:08] Shannon Hernandez: be shy. Okay. Can we go another four hours now? I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. You're like you're at home anyway, man. Pants on. All you need to do is go five steps to the kitchen, getting Blunch set. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.
[00:54:23] Good to talk to you. All right. You too.
